The 13th Black Crusade - Again.

The 13th Black Crusade - Again.

Postby Grandmasterspectre » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:55 pm

I know there are a lot of long time players on here who recognize that what we are really seeing is the 13.5th Black Crusade since they all remember the original global campaign. While that campaign was marred by a gamesmanship in battle reporting in the end, I think many of us still remember those nerd-gasm moments during that campaign and I have to admit I am hopeful, saddened, and scared by the retcon. I want to get the takes of the veterans and n00bs alike on the new 13th Black Crusade. I'll start with mine:

Hope:

1) That they keep the plot loosely similar to what happened previously. My absolute favorite moment of the campaign was the daily Imperial email newsletter that started with "To All Imperial Forces on Saint Jasmine's Hope, Get Out Now." Reading the section of the 13th Black Crusade book from Black Library about Saint Jasmine's Hope is just such excellent 40K STORY that I would really like it to be canon, again. I always though the liner notes so perfectly stated just how momentus the events were.

2) That the Black Library book above stay accurate. Many people don't know this, but there was an incredibly cool hat tip to fans in that book. If you have it, there is a partial list of Imperial Guard Regiments that participated in the conflict near the back, that list was taken from the public Imperial Guard forum where players had posted their armies (in character). That means that every one of those armies belonged to a real player (and yes, one of them is mine).

3) The Necrons are really going to get into the story as they probably should have been from the start.

4) Some background stuff is going to tie together better.

Sad:

1) That they didn't just start where they left off. The story of the original campaign had the attack stall out, it easily could have re-started and not been retconned out.

2) That such a big piece of 40K story is no more. It will be written again, and the original will slowly be forgotten. Are the Celestial Lions still destroyed? What is still true? They will miss details, and I'm saddened that those will be no more.

Scare:

1) That a year from now we will have Warhammer 40K: Sigmar's Triumphant Return and like WFB, the world (and game) will be so altered it isn't the same thing anymore.

2) Primarchs/Exarchs/etc: Don't need them in the game. Part of the appeal of 40K is that the end is coming, it never should get here and I hope they don't get too close to the edge (or go over it like they did in WFB). 40K is about foreshadowing. While having actual plot movement is cool, they went WAY to far with WFB, so I'm scared they won't know where to stop.
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Re: The 13th Black Crusade - Again.

Postby saultydog » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:14 pm

Grandmasterspectre wrote:2) That the Black Library book above stay accurate. Many people don't know this, but there was an incredibly cool hat tip to fans in that book. If you have it, there is a partial list of Imperial Guard Regiments that participated in the conflict near the back, that list was taken from the public Imperial Guard forum where players had posted their armies (in character). That means that every one of those armies belonged to a real player (and yes, one of them is mine).

I don't know anything about the game, but that's pretty neat. A great way to make players feel like they're a part of things, even if they didn't have their personal army in there.
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Re: The 13th Black Crusade - Again.

Postby MR_MAGOO » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:57 am

I do remember most of this and I am not a big Story person. I do remember one of the big events that occurred, and that was the Death of one of the Greatest character in the 40k Universe. Died in the attack on the Black Library.

ELDRAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: The 13th Black Crusade - Again.

Postby Genoside07 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:00 am

Grandmasterspectre wrote:Scare:

1) That a year from now we will have Warhammer 40K: Sigmar's Triumphant Return and like WFB, the world (and game) will be so altered it isn't the same thing anymore.

2) Primarchs/Exarchs/etc: Don't need them in the game. Part of the appeal of 40K is that the end is coming, it never should get here and I hope they don't get too close to the edge (or go over it like they did in WFB). 40K is about foreshadowing. While having actual plot movement is cool, they went WAY to far with WFB, so I'm scared they won't know where to stop.


I also saw this as the "Warhammer End Times" for 40k; Everyone can only hope Games Workshop handles it better this time.
So many times on other forums I have heard the comment that the new edition of 40k will make or break the company.
They can not put out the same hot mess as Age of Sigmar did with their main flagship game. The other comment is 40k players
begging not to AoS the 40k game. Over simplification killed epic and about took out the warhammer game, there is a sign of hope
because they are attempting to fix things, but first impressions are important and lost players are hard to recover in the current
competitive gaming scene
Any time a new edition comes out, whether it is D&D or 40k, the publishers have a choice of doing a soft change or a hard change.
Soft is a general clean up of the rules with previous supporting books still playable until they get updated. This is what we have
got in the past few editions of 40k
Hard is scorched earth.. Nothing stays, All your books are worthless and need to buy all new.
Funny thing is Age of Sigmar was kind of a medium, Models stayed but everything else went, but not releasing a superior game
or a game that everyone wanted, it caused the same thing with 4th edition D&D and Pathfinder with their community..

This again is what a ton of people are saying... go small (40k in 40 minutes) instead of Titans and deamons, My worry also is scale creep, they done it for
years and the models of the current Age of Sigmar is a lot larger than the models in the past. Wouldn't surprise me if they did a "true scale" marines so everyone
has to rebuy their chapter of marines.
Did you lose a shoe? Nope, found one. - peanut
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Re: The 13th Black Crusade - Again.

Postby Grandmasterspectre » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:46 am

saultydog wrote:
Grandmasterspectre wrote:2) That the Black Library book above stay accurate. Many people don't know this, but there was an incredibly cool hat tip to fans in that book. If you have it, there is a partial list of Imperial Guard Regiments that participated in the conflict near the back, that list was taken from the public Imperial Guard forum where players had posted their armies (in character). That means that every one of those armies belonged to a real player (and yes, one of them is mine).

I don't know anything about the game, but that's pretty neat. A great way to make players feel like they're a part of things, even if they didn't have their personal army in there.


What I thought was most interesting, is they actually didn't tell anybody they were doing it. I only caught it when I read the book because one of the units posted just before I posted mine had a very specific name. I saw that post a lot because of using my post as a starting point to find new content. That regiment happened to head a column in the book and it caught my eye because of the name. Looked down the column because of it and saw mine. Then recognized that it was the posted units from the forum, in the same order.

In one fell swoop, they made around 300 player's personal IG regiments canon.

Was thinking about this last night, and there is one other I wanted to add.

Hope:

40K stays a dying universe. WFB was a dying universe, we all knew that the world was destined to end someday and all that was happening was simply slowing it. The problem: with the end times, the WFB universe died. Now AoS is a hopeful universe (can it RECOVER). The problem is that a hopeful universe isn't nearly as interesting. Why? in a hopeful universe, Good has to win or else there is no hope. In a dying universe, if Good wins, it forestalls the inevitable, if evil wins, its one step closer to the brink.
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Re: The 13th Black Crusade - Again.

Postby Grandmasterspectre » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:35 pm

So I have finished Fall of Cadia, and am still awaiting Fracturing of Biel Tan. So far, I have to say that this project is everything it should be. The fluff in Fall of Cadia is stellar and does a great job of advancing beyond the prior 13th black crusade world event, without really retconning it. Basically, it just makes the prior event the first wave and purposefully doesn't conflict certain events (e.g. St. Jasmine's Hope exterminatus) while also not confirming them. The special characters ruleswise are REALLY good, but they look to still be fun to use and play against as opposed to End Times when they were monsters.

I am still concerned with how far this is going to go. Fall of Cadia is nicely confined to one, when you really think about it, relatively small event (even though it has galaxy spanning implications and hints of larger plots in play). The fluff really does a great job of not making it clear that Chaos is going to take over (or not) while also clearly advancing the timeline a substantial amount. There are plenty of options and plot hooks that can allow the galaxy to pull out of a tailspin before it crashes, and the hope is that GW quits with the world in the tailspin and not crash it.

As opposed to End Times, where it was pretty clear pretty quick there was no way to save the world at all (e.g. by book 2) this feels much more open ended. Chaos has won a major battle, but the war is far from over. The rules seem to confirm this as they seem to try very hard to keep everything going.

As the plot moves forward from here, obviously the Eldar are getting a unified army (hmmm, sounds like elves in the Old World) and there is the leak relating to a certain Primarch (seriously, did we need a Primarch?) so there is a lot more shakeup to go. At the same time, the deep involvement of the Necrons here specifically with hints of just how powerful they are and the hinting of more on ancient races (Slann) still says to me there is a lot of story to go before this chapter ends. I just still hope GW doesn't feel the need to tell all of it too quick. I hope there is some involvement of other races (I'm expecting the Tau to get introduced to Chaos sometime soon) and I am also pleased that there has been a couple small tips of the hat as to why Heresy units can show up in 40K.

Overall, I'm looking forward to book 2.
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